Preliminary 2012 Wilmot PRO4 Rulebook

"No portion of any bar or cage may pass through any firewall to hook to or stiffen the frame beyond the area of the driver’s compartment."

"Two forward facing bars of no more than 1 3/4” diameter may extend through the fiiewall, but must be attached to frame/unibody at some point before the radiator."

might have to word this section differently. how about: bars may pass through the firewall but not extend past the front shock towers with the exception of two bars from the shock towers to frame rails behind the radiator support, those bars cannot be supported across the car.  does that make more sense? 

also it should say somewhere in the body section that the entire unibody structure should remain intact. no removal of structure allowed. 

wheels need to be same diameter on all four corners. does the 10% aspect ratio need to be 5%? any opinions on that? 10% is quite a bit. 

i would say we can remove the "stock proportioning valve" rule. if we are going this far then who really cares? 

no brake bias controller? same wheels y? whats the point if its all out....

Thats not what hes saying trevor. Hes saying remove the current rule that states no brake bias controller and let it say that theyre ok. And I agree, why do we need to say wheels need to be same diameter? If its all out, let it be... And I dont think we need an aspect ratio percentage. Again, ALL OUT, let it be... Internationals dont have one...

The rest of my comments will be in regards to the rules as they are written in order.

3. Roll Cages- I thought we discussed one driver bar is required now, so I believe the roll cage rule should read more like this.        

3. ROLL CAGES
REQUIRED: Five point roll cage. Cages must be installed and constructed so that the “B hoop” is higher than the driver’s
head. A diagonal bar from shoulder height towards feet is required on drivers side. 1 3/4” .095 tube is recommended. If
cage or bar is mounted to the floor pan, a 6” X 6” steel plate or equivalent must be used at hoop mounting points, and plated
gussets at main intersections are recommended. It is your responsibility to construct a cage
assembly capable of protecting you from injury. Roll cage may NOT extend past rear suspension pick up points. Two
forward facing bars of no more than 1 3/4” diameter may extend through the fiiewall, but must be attached to frame/unibody
at some point before the radiator. Bars may be tied together but may be no further forward than the centerline of the strut
towers.

4. Tires and Wheels- I thought we agreed that siping, grooving, shaving, and chemical treatments were ok in pro class...? And again, I say we get rid of the same size, and aspect ratio rule.... ALL OUT!!!

6. Engines- There just seems to be a lot of omission here. This needs to be more descriptive to let outsiders know just how open this class will truly be. And why no ITB's? I seriously doubt anyone will run them, but I say go for it if you wanna spend the coin... Heres my shot at it-

6. ENGINES
Any engine that fits in ALL of the STOCK mounting brackets and mounting locations that came from the same manufacturer as the body of the
vehicle will be allowed. Aftermarket/NON-Swap mounts or fabricated solid mounts, ok.  Max 2500 CC. Any NA modifications will be allowed
including cams, head work, head swaps, pistons, fuel systems, intake manifolds, throttle bodies, headers, computer tuning/chipping, etc...9. Brakes- Like steve said, needs to be updated to say "brake bias/proportioning valves allowed"

11. Steering and Suspension- We need to get rid of the "stock style control arms" part and it needs to say something more like " aftermarket or homemade control arms and toe arms that fit in original mounting locations allowed"

12. Cooling Systems- Again, we need to get rid of "any stock radiator which will fit in stock brackets" I know we discussed this. We said any radiator will do... Should say "any radiator, stock or a 'made for racing' unit will be allowed that you can safely and securely mount in your engine compartment"

13. Fuel Tanks- It says a max of a 5-gal fuel cell is allowed. Not only do I not think we need a max on this, but most cells out there that people would use for 4 cylinders are 8 gallon.

Id say thats the extent of my input. Anybody have any gripes or revisions to what I had to say?

i agree.. should be allowed to run any tire size on any corner of the car.. and grooving,sipping and shaving should be allowed.. in pro class...

and is there any rule on offsets for racing rims?

here is what i would like to see. 

1) yes the roll cage rule should read that a door bar or 1/8 or larger steel plate welded across the entire drivers door. (i think thats an enduro rule) i would also like the front tube rule to read how i wrote it. 

2) i want the wheels to be the same size per axle and tires to be moderately close in diameter so the cars still look like basic production cars. not some half front wheel drive sprint car with a monster truck tire on one side and a fiesta wheel on the other. i would say you can run different offsets per side as long as they fit inside the stock body work. see how todd feels about sipping and shaving tires. i don't really have to much of an opinion on that one. if we wanted to go ALL OUT as you guys are saying then it would be tube frame "run what you brung" type racing. i want to keep this still looking pretty production based so people want to step up to this class. 

3) maybe the engine rule should explain in detail how open it really is. if its no rules n/a then sure why not itb's. aftermarket stock replacement mounts or improving stock bushings in the stock mounts should be allowed, thats fine. rule will also read that engines must only run on gasoline. NOTHING ELSE. 

4) no home made control arms will be allowed. only quality aftermarket arms should be allowed. these suspensions take a hell of a beating, the last thing i want to see is some home made piece of shit control arm costing someone a car or getting someone hurt. every control arm will be subject to safety inspection. 

5) any radiator is fine with me. 

6) i think 8 gallon should be the max as well. 

7) no more stock proportioning valve rule. i don't see the point if suspension and brake rules are open. 

I dont feel like having different size wheels will make the cars look like some crazy homemade racecars... Sometimes you cant get your desired tire size for the rim you have. if someone wants to stick a 13 on the drivers rear, whats the problem with that? My guess is if you ask the rest of the racers, most or all wont have a problem with it. I doubt Todd will care about siping and grroving seeing as he used to do it himself. And stagger is what makes these cars turn steve, why do we need to put a limitation on it? What does everyone else think?

And when I said homemade control arms, I was referring to swedge tube and rod end style arms. I dont see a problem with those steve...

not everyone has the resources that you have. just sayin. 

And what resources might that be? Karl? He owns an automotive business, if anybody else wants his resources give him a call at 815-675-1822.

i would consider his parts manufactured and not home made. 

just because you want things to be a certain way doesn't mean that its going to happen. i think we as a group of racers need to consider the best thing to make the class grow. the closer we keep these cars based to "bandit" type cars the more people are going to convert their cars to come race with us. not many people are going to build the all out wilmot spec only car. the majority of cars that raced in the pro4 class last year were cars that were cheated up stock class cars. if we can keep those people in and competitive then everyone benefits from it. i would like the rules to be somewhat free for people to have fun. but i think certain things need to be the way I'm saying to keep things competitive and safe

I would say unlimited wheel range is nothing major why limit it. If a guy has the money to open his engine, head work all that he can surely spend the extra on some tires?

I really can understand where youre comin from steve, but the only thing I believe were not seein eye to eye on is wheels and tires. Your way seems more restrictive, and honestly more costly. If you allow wheel and tire size options to be open, it might be easier for people to find junkyard tires and wheels that dont need to match. They can make due with what they have. Not only that, but with how open this class is, why would we want to limit something as important as that...? I guess we need more than just mine and your input...

i want there to be some limiting factors on speed and making cars somewhat level across the board. if everyone ran the same 155/70/14 tires no matter how much power or suspension work you have all the cars would be pretty close speed wise because its so traction limited. I'm not saying we need a tire size limit, what I'm saying is if everyone has to run similar tire sizes then it should keep speed between makes of cars similar. 

lets take for example a nissan 240sx vs a nissan sentra. two cars that I'm pretty familiar with. the 240 can run close to if not a 305mm wide 18 inch wheel and combo with stock body work. getting a 225/17 to fit under a sentra is next to impossible. that lends a MASSIVE stagger advantage to a 240 over a sentra. a sentra would never be able to compete with such a huge disadvantage. now take my 10/10 rule and apply it to both cars and things are still pretty even with them. sure one can fit a bigger tire still. but you don't have the ENORMOUS advantage of 4 or 5 inch wheel difference on one car and barely 2 or 3 on the other. 

get where I'm coming from? now this is only a quick example of two cars i own and am familiar with. some cars can probably fit bigger than a 240 and some probably can't fit as much as a sentra. think about it. 

but thats all part of the car you choose, one car you can do this the other that but usually not both on either car.

i say u might as well allow any motor in a car. if its all out. let it be all out. i think there are cars out there that be good canidates but have shit crap motors. but there are motors that swap in by moving a motor mount that make the car completely stock but sick nasty. 

wheels come on. stagger let it go! might as well

individual throttle bodies?

i still think turbo or superchargers. to let a guy with a stock nissan run with fully built cars. open n/a is sorta a wilmot only thing. ive been to lasalle k3 freeport.  and other tracks if you show up with a car that lobes like a v8 sits like a late model ur still raising eyebrows. ':) where as a turbo i can take it to lax or other tracks that allow turbos. i know u wanna keep cars here only. but sadly idt itll happen. without big show(s) people wanna go on off weeks to $ and crowds. 

I believe that the only reason I did it is that we had no tech back then, but now their is, grooving, sipping, grinding is ok. Just remember I have steve's back on what ever he decides with the rules, no point in arguing, we make the rules and we inforce them as well, if u think ur smarter then the people we have teching, we will catch you. Stagger is fine but like steve said, dont make it look like a redneck race car, jacked up on one side. We are tring to make this class grow with class not trash-------TREVOR!!!!!!!! 

there wasnt any arguing. mere suggestions todd. and thats fine that your gonna tech. y are people again being singled out? fuck it c yall at rockford babys

btw todd lk is dhoughie if u didnt know. 

Your the baby.

Why is it so hard to just read the rule book???  

We expanded on a lot of things to make people happy.  Now you want more. 

Just fucking go out an race.  If there becomes a big issue with a rule a couple races in, maybe it would be amended.  If not, just build the best race car you cna inside the rules and show us how your the BEST RACER  and win while adhering to the rules.

Fucking whining gets you know where.

ok all that happened here was i wen toff what dhoughie said i asked about itbs' and commented about stagger. so w/e dudes u make everything big deal. i didnt ask for anything. cuz simply idc